Sheila Kelley Green, 2004

Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones, And Words Will Hurt Forever

Kerry Donahue

Copyright
Sheila Green
2004

INTRO:

Each day more than one hundred sixty thousand kids skip school because they are afraid of being bullied. Those numbers came from the US department of Justice when they did their research into the rash of school shootings that peaked five years ago with the massacre at Columbine High school.

The research also showed that children ages eight- to fifteen worry more about bullying than about drugs, alcohol and AIDS combined.

Kids today are living in fear. But the bullying they are afraid of can be slippery and elusive define. Experts say that the first step to help parents, educators and kids deal with the bully problem is putting together a coherent accepted definition.

In this first part of a three part series, Sheila Green looks at what bullying is and where it comes from.

NARR:
Jim Benidetto coaches football at Brooklyn Tech High School. He's a formidable man with a white crewcut and biceps that stretch out the sleeves of his T-shirt. He obviously adores his son Gene. The coach's eyes light up when he talks about his son's natural talent for playing the trumpet. There are pictures of Gene all over their Brooklyn Heights apartment.

COACH:
MY 16 YEAR OLD SON, WHO YOU CAN MEET IN A MINUTE, IS THIS TINY LITTLE SKINNY KID. HE'S ONE OF THE SMALLEST KIDS IN HIS CLASS. HE'S A SOPHOMORE IN HIGH SCHOOL AND HE'S LIVING THIS EVERYDAY.

NARR:
He says Gene is having a tough time, socially, at school. But it's hard for the coach to say that his son is bullied. Instead he says Gene is hazed or picked on. When Gene sits next to his father at the kitchen table, he also hesitates to call it bullying. For him it just the simple every day reality of Chemistry class.

GENE:
PRETTY MUCH WHAT I'VE EXPERIENCED IS JUST NAME CALLING AND PAPER THROWN AT ME, JUST BOOK BAGS GETTING DUMPED OUT. STUFF LIKE THAT…NOTHING FUN.

COACH:
A KID STUCK A PEN THROUGH HIS DOWN COAT, EARLIER THIS YEAR. RUINED IT, WE HAD TO THROW IT OUT. ANOTHER INCIDENT…HE'S BACK AND THERE'S INK SMEARED ALL OVER HIS SHIRT. AND I SAYS WHERE DID THAT COME FROM? AND HE SAYS, "I THINK SOME KIDS DID IT IN CHEMISTRY CLASS."

NARR:
Benidetto and his son are at loss as to how to define what happens to Gene in Chemistry. They agree it's a problem - some incident happens almost everyday. But because it happens everyday Gene says he is resigned to it. The benidettos are not alone in their confusion. There are still wide gaps between what conventional wisdom defines as bullying and what experts include in their definitions.

These gaps are dangerous because educators, parents, and kids fall through them. Experts who work with children argue that a comprehensive definition is needed so anyone dealing with problem can be taken seriously.

Dr. Amy Bobrow is a clinical physiologist and research scientist at the NYU child study center. She says what Gene endures in Chemistry class is just one type of bullying.

AMY:
THERE'S DIRECT BULLYING AND THAT'S WHEN SOMEONE WILL DO SOMETHING IN A DIRECT WAY SO IT'S OBVIOUS THAT IT'S BULLYING...TEASING VERBAL TAUNTING ANY TYPE OF AGGRESSION PUSHING PINCHING ALONG THE CONTINUUM TO HITTING KICKING SHOVING// THERE'S ALSO STEALING WHICH IS A FORM OF DIRECT BULLYING BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE IT.

NARR:
Just because bullying can sometimes been seen, doesn't mean it is always taken seriously. According Benidetto schools are not prepared to deal any kind of violence short of a fist fight. He says tragedy hasn't even given schools a wake up call they need.

COACH:
THEY DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT THIS. OKAY. COLUMBINE HASN'T HAD THE EFFECT THAT 9-11 HAS HAD ON THIS COUNTRY. YOU KNOW, A LOT OF SCHOOLS SAY, "WELL, THIS COULD NEVER HAPPEN HERE. WE RUN A WONDERFUL SCHOOL HERE, EVERYBODY'S HAPPY." BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF KIDS RUNNING AROUND WHO ARE UNHAPPY.

NARR:
Gene says even when he confronted teachers about his problems they did little to help him

GENE:
THEY COULDN'T REALLY DO ANYTHING BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T SEE IT THEMSELVES. SO, THEY'D THINK I WAS JUST LYING TO THEM TRYING TO GET SOMEONE IN TROUBLE SOMETIMES.

NARR:
Coach Benidetto deals with bullying as a father and as a teacher. He says the when bullying occurs in his classroom and he sees it there's not a lot he can do

COACH:
OUR DISCIPLINE CODE FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION IS A JOKE. WE'VE GIVEN THE KIDS THE POWER. A KID CAN PRAY ON OTHER KIDS AND UNLESS HE BREAKS A LAW - HE CAN, YOU KNOW, DO ANYTHING HE WANTS.

NARR:
Benidetto felt there was more he could do a parent. He went to Gene's school and demanded the problem be taken seriously. But Gene says his father's visit didn't help much.

GENE:
AFTER EVERYTHING SETTLED DOWN, EVERYBODY FORGOT ABOUT IT, THEY STARTED DOING IT AGAIN. THEN DAD TALKED AGAIN AND THEY STOPPED THEN STARTED AGAIN. IT'S LIKE A NEVER ENDING CYCLE.

NARR:
What feels constant and never ending to Gene often gets dismissed by adults as being a regular part of growing up. A major stumbling block to addressing the problem of bullying is the pervasive attitude that it's just a phase. Boys will be boys and girls will be girls and they'll all grow out of it eventually.

Dr. Bobrow says research shows otherwise.

AMY:
IF A CHILD HAS A FIGHT ONE DAY AT SCHOOL, BUT THAT'S IT, THAT'S NOT A BULLY SITUATION - A BULLY IS WHEN IT'S HAPPENING - THERE'S AN IMBALENCE OF POWER AND IT'S CONTINUOUS OVER TIME. RESEARCH HAS SHOWN THAT VICTIMS REMAIN VICTIMS FOR AN AVERAGE OF TWO YEARS.

NARR:
Those two years are more serious than many realize. According to the Journal of American Medical Association victims of bullying are five times more likely to be depressed and far more likely to be suicidal. Dr. Bobrow says there may be more going on than anyone notices.

AMY:
KIDS WILL REPORT A CERTAIN EXTENT OF BULLYING AND TEACHERS WILL HIGHLY UNDERREPORT IT - THEY USUALLY GET ABOUT 10 PERCENT OF THE BULLYING INCIDENTS SO THEY'RE MISSING 90 PERCENT.

NARR:
One of the reasons for this disparity is that most bullying happens in places where adults just aren't around: on the playground, in the bathroom and in the cafeteria at lunchtime.

But in Gene's case teachers are unable to catch things that are going on in their own classrooms. He says the bullies have a brashness that helps them hide in plain sight.

GENE:
IT'S LIKE THEY'RE ON A PEDISTAL. THEY'RE UP HERE PEOPLE THEY PICK ON ARE DOWN HERE. AND EVEN IN CHEMISTRY THEY FEEL THEY'RE SO HIGH UP THEY TALK BACK TO THE TEACHER. CRAZY. IT'S CHAOS THAT CLASS.

NARR:
Dr. Amy Bobrow says the bully's confidence is more than just for show.

AMY:
ONE OF THE MYTHS IS THAT BULLIES HAVE LOW SELF ESTEEM AND THEY BULLY OTHER KIDS TO FEEL BETTER. WELL, THE RESEARCH PROVES THAT MYTH WRONG. THE RESEARCH SHOWS THAT BULLIES ACTUALLY FEEL PRETTY GOOD ABOUT THEMSELVES AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MAKING THEM FEEL BETTER, IT'S ABOUT ASSERTING THEIR POWER.

NARR:
According to Dr. Bobrow physically aggressive bullies may feel the need to assert that power because they are confused about what's appropriate and what's not. She says that confusion may come from how punishment is handled at home.

AMY:
A LOT OF TIMES THERE WAS PHYSICAL DISCIPLINE, BUT IT WAS INCONSISTENT PHYSICAL DISCIPLINE. SO ONE DAY IF A CHILD DID SOMETHING IT WASN'T EVEN ACKNOWLEDGED, AND IF HE DID THE SAME THING THE NEXT DAY HE'D GET HIT OR SENT TO HIS ROOM.

NARR:
These kids may use physical force to exert control over a smaller child. But not all bullies use their fists, and not all bullying is physical.

When girls bully they often use their friendships to wound. Rachel Simmons is the author of the best selling book Odd Girl Out. She says, instead of targeting some weaker stranger girls tend to bully their friends.

RACHEL (TRACK 5: 1:00)
RELATIONSHIPS ARE TOOLS, THEY ARE WEAPONS AND IT'S NOT JUST ME WHO'S ANGRY, BUT IT'S ALL MY FRIENDS AND IF YOU WANT FIGHT WITH ME YOU'RE GONNA FIGHT WITH ALL MY FRIENDS AND WHEN I SAY FIGHT, I MEAN AN EMOTIONAL VERBAL CONFLICT THAT MAY LIKELY RESULT IN YOU BEING ISOLATED.

NARR:
Simmons says behavior often gets written off as girls being stereotypically manipulative catty. But experts agree this kind of hidden personal attack is really bullying. Dr. Bobrow says some kids just come at bullying from a different angle.

AMY:
THE WAY MANY KIDS DO THAT IS THROUGH GOSSIPING. THE IDEA IS TO SPREAD RUMORS AND DO THINGS SO THAT KIDS ARE ISOLATED FROM THEIR PEERS - NO ONE WILL WANT TO TALK TO THEM..THEY WILL BE EXCLUDED FROM THE NORMAL TABLES IN THE CAFETERIA.

<CLASS ROOM AMBIENT>

NARR:
Exclusion is a real fear for 6th grader Kelly Velez. The desks in her class are arranged in small crooked clusters -- instead of rows. But she still sits in the back.

KELLY:
I SIT WITH MY FRIEND BOWIE, ALBERT, AND TWO CHINESE STUDENTS WHO TRANSFERRED IN THIS YEAR WHO ARE NAMED: ....

NARR:
Kelly and the boys are assigned to a group in the far left of the class all the way in the rear of the room. They are the tall students and they sit in what they call Siberia so they don't block anyone else's view of the teacher at board.

AMBIENT:
CLASSROOM

At five foot six, Kelly is the tallest student in class; she could pass for seventeen. But she is only 12 years old. And she does her best to navigate the complicated social labyrinth, of the 6th grade. There are rules, there are hierarchies, there are punishments for stepping out of line.

Kelly's friend Lauren stepped out of line when she began dating a boy that another girl in their group liked. Kelly began to call the boy. She told him lies

KELLY:
"I WAS TELLING HIM: "LISTEN TO ME, LAUREN DOES NOT LIKE YOU, SHE LIKES KEVIN, SHE'S GOING OUT WITH YOU BECAUSE SHE FEELS PITY FOR YOU, I KNOW YOU LIKE HER A LOT, BUT SHE FEELS NOTHING FOR YOU, I MEAN SHE'S LIKE, SHE'S USING YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE ONE OF KEVIN'S REALLY GOOD FRIENDS….

NARR:
Lauren really did have feelings for the boy and Kelly knew. She sits Indian style on the floor of her living room and explains that she blew Lauren's chance to date the boy because Lauren should not have been dating a boy the other girls in the group liked.

Lauren was not pleased

KELLY:
SHE CALLED ME WITH TWO OTHER FRIENDS ON THE LINE, AND SHE SAID "YOU BLEW MY SPOT AND I'M GONNA BLOW YOUR SPOT" AND I HUNG UP ON HER.

NARR:
After the phone call Kelly her other friends started to bully Lauren. They ignored her in the hallways and isolated her at lunch. But instead of bullying with her fists, Kelly and her friends manipulated her friendships to get what she wanted. Rachel Simmons there are other hidden misinterpreted ways that girls bully. For instance: they may say a girl looks fat one day and when it seems that her feelings are hurt, they will say they were only kidding.

SIMMONS:
LOT OF GIRLS WILL SEEMINGLY ACT LIKE ANYTHING IS EXCUSABLE IF YOU DIDN'T MEAN IT, THEY BELIEVE SOMEHOW THAT THE INTENT OF THE BEHAVIOR CANCELS OUT THE IMPACT ….SOMETIMES YOU'LL CATCH THEM IN THE ACT AND THEY'LL THEY DENY IT TO THE POINT THAT YOU'LL QUESTION YOUR OWN SANITY, BECAUSE YOU KNOW YOU SAW IT

NARR:
Simmons says girls often take this indirect route because they live in a world that refuses them access to anger. She says girls are taught that they are supposed to nice all time to everybody. But the incident with Lauren and the boy made Kelly very mad.

KELLY:
WELL, I WANTED TO…I DON'T KNOW. I JUST FEEL ANGER ON THE INSIDE. LIKE THEY GET ME SO SO MAD…I FEEL LIKE BEATING THE STUFFING OUT OF THEM (TRACK 16. 00:46)

NARR:
But she didn't beat them up. She had to find another avenue for her feelings. She had to be a bully in her own way.

And experts agree that her form bullying is just as potent and hurtful as a fistfight.

This is Sheila Green, Columbia Radio news

OUTRO:
There are as many ways to fight bullying as there are different types of bullying itself. In the second part of this three part series Sheila Green looks at anti-bullying programs and the different tactics adults use to help children dealing with the problem.
PART II: INTRO

With bullying so hard to identify and define it is also difficult to combat. In part two of this three part series Sheila Green looks at anti-bullying programs and the different tactics adults use to stop bullying.

Despite the prevailing attitude that bullying happens to some extent in every school, one school was so ashamed they had to bring in a program that administrators asked the school not be identified by name.

NAT SOUND: KIDS

NARR:
It's just past 11:30 on a Wednesday. This is third period lunch at an elementary school in Queens. Roaming in the madness are two 10-year-old girls trying to keep the peace. Brianna is on the prowl for kids fighting, teasing, or just not getting along.

BRIANNA:
THERE'S ALL KINDS OF BULLIES. THERE'S NOT A CERTAIN TYPE

NARR
Brianna and 24 other 5th and 6th graders were deputized as Bully Busters thanks to the school's use of the Don't Laugh At Me Project.

The Program was created by Peter Yarrow of the folk music group Peter, Paul and Mary. And this school in Queens is one of the 10 Thousand schools nationwide using the program to cut bullying.

Debbie is the project administrator at the Queens elementary school. She did not want her full name used.

DEBBIE:
WE DO HAVE, OR DID HAVE A BULLYING PROBLEM IN THIS SCHOOL. IT'S IN EVERY SCHOOL. IT'S CITYWIDE, NATIONWIDE, WORLDWIDE. IT'S AN ONGOING PROBLEM.

NARR:
To deal with that problem, Debbie's principal paid for her to be trained in the Don't Laugh At Me Project's methods. The program materials - like the video and the song- are free, but it costs schools between 15 Hundred and 3 Thousand dollars to train their staff.

Debbie implemented the program at the school last year.

DEBBIE:
I'LL SHOW YOU THE SECOND FLOOR.

NARR:
Artwork is one of the hallmarks of the Don't Laugh At Me Project. As she walks up the staircase, Debbie points out posters that look like road signs. The posters remind kids that this school a ridicule free zone. But even with all the artwork, Debbie thought there was something missing. She wanted to get the bystanders involved.

DEBBIE:
MY GOAL IS TO REACH, YES, THE CHILD THAT'S BULLIED, THAT'S THE VICTIM, BUT ALSO THE BULLIES, BUT ALSO THE WITNESSES. THE BYSTANDERS TO MAYBE THEY DON'T JOIN IN NOW.

NARR:
To make the bystanders to feel as powerful as the bullies, Debbie christened kids Bully Busters and sent them out to find the bullying teachers miss. Abyssina is one of those Bully busters. She is 11 years old. Her bully busting technique is simple

ABYSSINA:
SO WHAT I TRY AND DO IS GET THEM COME AND SIT WITH NO ONE AROUND AND THE PROBLEM OUT. THAT WAY EVERYONE WINS.

NARR:
Both Abyssina and her friends Cynthia, who is 10 years old, say they were teased and made of. Now not only do they feel good about contributing to the school, but at long last they are part of a group.

ABYSSINA AND CYNTHIA:
IT FEELS LIKE YOU ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING AND THAT'S THE FUN THING FOR ME IS ABOUT - ACCOMPLISHING SOMETHING AND HAVING FUN AT THE SAME TIME. IT'S LIKE YOU'RE PART OF THE BULLY BUSTER FAMILY.

NARR:
The Don't Laugh at Me Project is just one of the bullying programs used in New York City and in the country. It relies on the idea that kids know in their hearts what is right, and if given plenty of encouragement and reminders- like all those posters - they will be kind to each other.

But some experts say even though children may know what's right, they need plenty of practice before they can do the right thing everyday. In that vein there are other programs that help children rehearse how not to bullies or victims or passive bystanders. Sherryll Kraizer is the founder of the Safe Child Program.

SHERRYLL:
ONE OF THE WORST THINGS I HEAR PARENTS SAY IN PRESCHOOL GROUPS
IS "WELL YOU GO WORK IT OUT." IF THEY KNEW HOW TO WORK IT OUT THEY WOULD.

NARR:
Kraizer believes in teaching all kids - not just bullies and victims-how to resolve their differences. She says bystanders should be taught how much power they have to help a situation.

SHERRYLL:
ALL THE OTHER KIDS CAN BE TRAINED TO BE ADVOCATES, THEY CAN SEE THIS HAPPENING IN A BATHROOM FOR EXAMPLE AND SAY TO THE BULLY, YOU DON'T GET TO TREAT HIM THAT WAY. LEAVE HIM ALONE.

NARR:
But Kraizer says sticking up for someone can be scary. The bystander may be afraid they'll be the next target. Or they might worry that the targeted kid will try to latch on them. Kraizer says role-playing is the best way to give kids the confidence to make mature choices.

Kraizer:
KIDS CAN LEARN TO SPEAK WITH ADVOCACY, LEARN TO SPEAK WITH KINDNESS, BUT TO BE CLEAR. YOU KNOW, MAYBE SAY TO THE PERSON: YOU KNOW, I WAS REALLY GLAD TO STAND UP FOR YOU. I WOULD DO IT AGAIN ANYTIME, BUT LIKE, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT HANGING WITH YOU.

NARR:
Whether it's role playing or bully busters, research shows there can be long term benefits to bully prevention. Fight Crime Invest in Kids is a national organization of police, prosecutors and others in law enforcement. Their research showed and 4 out of every 10 boys who bully had three or more convictions by the time they reached their mid-twenties.

That's a lot of numbers, but here's one more. They also found that the average bullying program costs a school district about 4 thousand dollars. That may be a lot of money for cash strapped schools, but Clay Wilkinson who's with Fight Crime Invest in kids says it's money well spent.

CLAY:
WHEN WE KNOW THAT IT COSTS COUNTY ONE POINT SEVEN MILLION DOLLARS FOR EVERY KID THAT ADOPTS A LIFE OF CRIME NOT MAKING THAT FOUR THOUSAND DOLLAR INVESTMENT SEEMS PENNY WISE AND POUND FOOLISH….

NARR:
Without a specific anti-bullying program, solutions vary situation by situation. Kids come to rely on other adults for help. Sometimes the school nurse or guidance councilor or school social worker provides the critical support.

SAM OFFICE AMBIENT

The Journal of American Medicine Association says children who are bullied are far more likely to get sick. They have more colds and coughs and sore throats than other
kids. At PS 95 in the Bronx, some of those kids end up in the nurse's office

ACT
WHAT'S THE MATTER?
MY EAR IS HURTING ME
RELAX WE'RE GONNA SEE YOU

Toby sits down and waits to see Sam Fuster. Fuster is the school's nurse practitioner, but she is also part advocate for the kids and part stand in mom. She understands how hard the social aspect of school is for kids

SAM:
IF YOU CAN IMAGINE GOING TO A JOB YOU HATE, WHERE NOBODY SAYS ANYTHING NICE TO YOU AND NOBODY EVER PATS YOU ON THE BACK THEN YOU GOTTA TAKE HOME PAPERWORK AND DO IT AND THE WHOLE THING OVER AGAIN IN THE MORNING…HOW MANY OF US WOULD STILL BE WORKING THAT JOB? AND KIDS DON'T HAVE A CHOICE; THEY HAVE TO BE IN SCHOOL.

NARR:
But kids do have a choice about where they go help. Fuster says she see her share of bullied kids.

SAM:
YOU KNOW THE KIDS THAT WANT TO STAY HERE IN THE CLINIC. //THEY WILL EXHAUST EVERY PHONE NUMBER, EVERY EXCUSE, WHEN EVER YOU TELL THEM THEIR STREP TEST WAS NEGATIVE AND THEIR THROAT'S OKAY AND THEY CAN GO BACK TO CLASS, THEY'LL TELL YOU THAT THEIR STOMACH IS HURTING AND OH YEAH, MY EAR'S BEEN BOTHERING ME.

NARR:
Fuster calls these students her Frequent Fliers. She says while those children may know they are unhappy and know they feel safe in her office, they don't always know their physical symptoms are part of an emotional problem due to bullying.

And since Fuster can't always be sure either. She tires to treat every problem medically first and then she moves on to the more difficult questions.

SAM:
WE TRY AND FOCUS ON WHAT WERE YOU DOING WHEN YOU GOT THE PAIN AND WHAT'S GOING ON. WHAT'S GOING ON AT HOME, WHAT'S GOING ON AT SCHOOL, WHAT'S GOING ON WITH YOUR FRIENDS?

Narr:
By taking this kind of history from her patients, Fuster is sometimes able to uncover a hidden problem.

She tells the story of one young girl who came into the clinic crying and loaded down with other non-specific symptoms. Fuster talked to the girl and found out classmates had written her a mean note. One she knew what was going on, she sprang into action.

SAM:
AND I FOUND OUT WHO WROTE THE LETTER AND BROUGHT THEM IN AND TALKED TO THEM. I WAS VERY UPSET BECAUSE I FOUND IT SUCH A HURTFUL LETTER.

NARR:
Fuster's mix of by warmth and advocacy is only one way to help victims deal with bullying.

Kim is a social worker at a High School in Manhattan she takes more of a hard line approach. She asked that her last name and the name of the school not be used. She sat at a coffee shop near her apartment to talk about what she sees in her office.

KIM:
THEY WOULD COME IN AND BE SO UPSET. THE GIRLS ESPECIALLY…SO AND SO ISN'T MY FRIEND ANYMORE. IT WAS MORE ABOUT TRYING TO WORK WITH THEM AND BE LIKE: HEY MAYBE YOU'RE NOT FRIENDS ANYMORE. WHAT CAN YOU DO ABOUT IT.

NARR:
Kim says her tough love approach sometimes surprises her students, but her tactics build resiliency. That's an tactic that is now coming into vogue with education and parenting experts. The idea is to teach kids that bad stuff happens. period. Kim teaches the kids that the only way to deal with the bad stuff is to adapt.

KIM:
HELPING THEM BREAK IT DOWN INTO STEPS: YOU KNOW, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO DO TO MAKE IT THROUGH TOMORROW. WHAT SORTS OF THINGS ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO MAKE SURE YOU A- PROTECT YOURSELF, B- IF YOU KNOW THEIR SCHEDULE, YOU KNOW STRATEGIES. IF YOU KNOW YOU NEED TO WALK PAST THEIR CLASS MAYBE FOR THE FIRST WEEK YOU TAKE A DIFFERENT ROUTE.

NARR:
Kim's next step is usually to get them to join a club or participate in her after school program - anything or anywhere they can meet new people and make new friends.

Each kind of bully prevention program gets some work done. Many teach children valuable lessons. Dedicated adults do what they can. But some experts say the most valuable part about structured programs or trusted adults is that they often give bullied kids the confidence to speak up about what's happening to them.

OUTRO:
Once they make it out of school, many past victims still grapple with their bullying history. In the final part of this three part series Sheila Green takes a look at the survivors.

INTRO:

The effects of bullying can be long-lasting. According to one Norweign expert who began studying the problem in the late 70's, children who were bullied in middle school grew up to be twenty-somethings who were depressed and had lower self-esteem than their peers.

Children who are bullies or are the targets of bullies don't simply forget and outgrow. In this final part of a three part series Sheila Green talks to survivors....

NARR:
For most of their young lives 17 year old Margaret Lopez and Natalie were best friends.

They met in elementary school and immediately had a connection. The two girls both came from large Dominican families. They both wanted to be lawyers when they grew up. The girls stayed friends all through junior high. Margaret assumed they would still be friends in when they were both accepted into the same high school.

She was wrong.

MARGARET:
SHE STARTED HANGING OUT WITH THE POPULAR CROWD AND YOU KNOW HOW THE POPULAR CROWD ARE…. WHEN YOU SEE A GROUP OF PEOPLE AND THEY ARE ALL WEARING THE SAME KIND OF CLOTHING, THOSE ARE THE POPULAR KIDS. THE LOUD ONES.

NARR:
Margaret says that one day Natalie suddenly started to ignore her in the hallways and on the bus. And in order to make it clear to her new friends where her loyalties were Natalie began to spread rumors about Margaret and boys at the school.

Margaret did her best to reconcile with Natalie, but their friendship was over. And Margaret had to move on. The whole experience changed what Margaret values in a friend.

MARGARET:
BEFORE TRUST WASN'T ALL THAT - IT WAS IN THE BACK OF MY HEAD. I WAS LIKE IF I CAN BE AROUND SOMEONE WHO'S FUN, WHO'S ALWAYS ON THEIR FEET, THEN THEY'RE COOL WITH ME. BUT NOW I THINK ENERGETIC IS NOT AS GOOD AS HAVING SOMEONE WHO'S TRUSTWORTHY.

NARR:
Margaret says the trust she craves is a solid base to build a friendship on.

MARGARET:
I CAN TRUST THEIR WORD THAT THEY'RE GONNA BE THERE WHEN I NEED THEM. THAT THEY WON'T LIE TO ME, THEY SPREAD RUMORS ABOUT ME, THEY WON'T GO OFF 'CAUSE THEY THINK THIS AND THIS PERSON IS BETTER THAN WHAT I AM.

NARR:
Margaret has made new friends, but she says she still hasn't found someone who fits her description of a trustworthy person. That doesn't surprise author Rachel Simmons. She says that when interviewing girls for her book Odd Girl Out, she found that the ways girls bully can lead them to doubt everything they come to expect about relationships

RACHEL
IT UNDERMINES MANY OF THOSE LESSONS WE MAY HAVE LEARNED ABOUT FRIENDSHIP AND INTIMACY AND LEAVES MANY PEOPLE AFTER THAT FEELING THAT THE LESSONS THEY HAVE LEARNED ARE SOMEHOW IN QUESTION: NAMELY - HOW AM I TO KNOW EVEN IF I MAKE FRIENDS AGAIN THAT ONE DAY THEY WON'T SIMPLY TURN ON ME. //

NARR:
These lessons are important and according to Simmons the way girls learn to be friends and effects all of their later relationships

RACHEL:
THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS GIRLS HAVE FORMATIVE EMOTIONALLY INTENSE ATTACHMENTS TO ONE ANOTHER//. THESE ARE THE LESSONS OF INTIMACY THAT THEY WILL CARRY WITH THEM THOUGH OUT THEIR LIVES AND FRANKLY I BELIEVE IMPORT INTO THEIR RELATIONSHIPS WITH MEN (ADD BEAT)

NARR:
Bullying also leaves more concrete problems in its wake. Dr. Amy Bobrow is a clinical physiologist and research scientist at the NYU child study center. She says bullying can have lasting, even devastating, consequences.

AMY:
KIDS WHO ARE BULLIES TEND TO END UP IN THE JUVENILE JUSTICE SYSTEM OR AS ADULTS IN OUR ADULT LEGAL SYSTEM THEY GET IN TROUBLE WITH THE LAW QUITE OFTEN.

NARR:
Dr. Bobrow says victims of bullying also may have problems as adults.

AMY:
KIDS WHO ARE VICTIMS TEND TO DEVELOP A HIGHER RATE OF - THEY DEVELOP MORE OFTEN ANXIETY DISORDERS AND DEPRESSIVE DISORDERS AS ADULTS.

NARR:
Alex Fitz was bullied in junior high school. She is now 29 and has an uncanny resemblance to movie star Gwenneth Paltrow. She is not the kind of person you would have ever expected to have had social problems. But after moving from Manhattan to northern New Jersey in the early 1980s she says she had a difficult time making and keeping friends. She says the popular girls did not like her.

ALEX:
WHEN EVER I WOULD WALK TOWARD THAT WING OF THE SCHOOL THEY WOULD START CALLING MY NAME IN THESE TAUNTING WAYS: ALEXANDRA, ALEXANDRA....

NARR:
Most of the other girls in school joined in the taunting. Alex spent most of her days alone, dreading school. Eventually she found a word for how she felt: depressed .

Dr. Bobrow says that depression most likely grew out of the fact that Alex felt powerless to stop the bullying.

AMY
AT THE BOTTOM REALLY WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT IS LOSS OF CONTROL. THEY DON'T HAVE CONTROL OVER THE SITUATION AND THERE'S A HOPELESSNESS THAT MIGHT LEAD TO DEPRESSION. THAT OH, THIS IS NEVER GONNA STOP. EVERYDAY IT'S THE SAME THING. AND THERE'S NOTHING I CAN DO.

NARR:
Alex now takes an anti-depressant to treat her depression. She doesn't blame the bullying she endured between the 6th and 8th grades for her adult problems, but she does think it contributed to them.

She read Rachel Simmons' book Out Girl Out and she says it brought many memories and a lot of anger.

ALEX:
I JUST STARTED FINDING MYSELF IN SORT OF DAYDREAM FANTASIES OF GOING BACK AND KICKING STEFFIE POMP'S ASS, JUST PULLING HER OUT BY THE HAIR. SO I'M STILL EFFECTED BY IT.

NARR:
Keith Winkler says he is also still effected by the bullying he endured all through school. But instead of dwelling on it, Winkler says he does his best to be different from the skinny kid he once was.

KEITH:
I SEE PICTURES OF MYSELF AS A LITTLE KID AND I'M LIKE YEAH THAT'S NOT ME. MY GIRLFRIEND IS BIG ON WHO YOU WERE DETERMINES WHO YOU ARE AND I'M BIG ON WHO I WAS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME NOW. LIKE I DISTANCE MYSELF FROM WHO I WAS BECAUSE I DIDN'T LIKE THAT PERSON.

NARR:
In order to leave that person behind, Winkler started to change as much about himself as he could. He cut his hair differently. He began to make regular trips to the gym. He pierced his left eyebrow. But the real distance from the bullied kid came when Winkler went away to college.

KEITH:
I REALLY WANTED TO GO AWAY TO SCHOOL BECAUSE I HAD TO GET AWAY AND MEET NEW PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T KNOW THE OLD ME SO THEY COULD GET TO KNOW THE NEW ME.

NARR:
But not even the literal and figurative distance is enough to repress the reflexes Winkler built up to deal with bullying. He says he will go to great lengths to avoid any kind of physical confrontation and there are other things he does automatically.

KEITH
LIKE EVEN NOW I'LL ALWAYS BE LOOKING BEHIND ME WHEN PEOPLE ARE PASSING ME BECAUSE KIDS USED TO JUST SMACK MY HEAD INTO THE LOCKER AND STUFF

NARR:
Winkler says that he was never angry about the way he was treated. He says he was resigned to the way things were

WINKLER:
I NEVER BLAMED ANYONE FOR BULLYING ME 'CAUSE I THINK I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING IN THEIR SHOES LIKE I NEVER QUESTIONED THE DYNAMIC. I JUST WANTED TO BE ON THE OTHER SIDE. I NEVER SAID, OH I DON'T THINK BULLYING SHOULD HAPPEN, I WAS JUST LIKE I WANT TO BE THE GUY WHO BULLIES AND YOU BE THE GUY I GET TO BULLY THAT WOULD BE BETTER.

NARR:
Margaret Lopez says she thinks that same desire was why her friend Natalie jumped at her chance to be part of the in crowd.

MARGARET:
I KINDA UNDERSTAND WHY SHE WANTED TO HANG OUT WITH THE POPULAR KIDS BECAUSE IT WAS ALWAYS THE LITTLE POPULAR KIDS THAT USED TO TEASE HER ALL THE TIME. SO, I THINK SHE WANTED TO BE ON THE OTHER SIDE TO SEE HOW IT FEELS OR SOMETHING.

NARR:
That urge doesn't surprise Dr. Bobrow:

AMY:
THE PULL FOR PEER ACCEPTANCE IS SO STRONG THAT EVEN KIDS WHO WERE TEASED WILL BECOME PART OF THE GROUP THAT TEASES IF THEY'RE LET IN

NARR:
Margaret says that when she and Natalie where in junior high she slept over at Natalie's house and Natalie confided in Margaret that she had been bullied before they met.

MARGARET:
THEY USED TO TEASE HER SO MUCH THEY USED TO TEASE HER ABOUT HER HAIR, THEY USED TO TEASE HER ABOUT HER COMPLEXION. THEY USED TO TEASE HER ABOUT EVERYTHING.

NARR:
But the teasing stopped when Natalie and Margaret became friends.

MARGARET
I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS HER FRIEND THEY TEASED A LITTLE, BUT THEY DIDN'T REALLY TEASE HER AS MUCH BECAUSE I DON'T LET MY FRIENDS GET TEASED. YOU KNOW IF SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING AND MY FRIEND WON'T SAY ANYTHING BACK I'LL SAY SOMETHING IMMEDIATELY

NARR:
Everything that makes bullying difficult to define and combat - how it is hidden and fluid and not always taken seriously - also makes it hard to track.

many adults say the bullying they lived through was an enormous painful problem - a problem they now try to shrug off as something that didn't really matter.

Sheila Green Columbia Radio News.